Kron Rapier Study Group

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Myles Cupp
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Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:03 pm

Well guys, the time has come. It is time to form the Kron Rapier Study Group.

I know at least Dylan and I have our own rapiers. Who else bought rapiers in last night's shipment or otherwise has their own already or are anticipating acquiring one?

This post is just to get people started on it and talking about it.
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Kron Martial Arts, CA
Psalm 119:89
"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
Salvator Fabris, 1606

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Myles Cupp
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:27 pm

Since some folks in the club have rapiers and many have upgraded to steel longsword, I feel this video is a great illustration of rapier v. longsword freeplay. What does everyone else think?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQC ... re=related

I think this video is doubly good because it looks like the rapier is a Hanwei practical and the longsword is possibly either the Hanwei Tinker Long or the Hand and a Half.
Lifetime HEMAA Member
Kron Martial Arts, CA
Psalm 119:89
"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
Salvator Fabris, 1606

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Myles Cupp
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:46 pm

Reposted from my Email:

I'm gathering materials on rapier in order to make a class. However,
before I progress too far I want to gauge interest into which rapier
system people will want to focus on as the systems themselves have
some differences and emphasize different guards and stances. Some
fundamentals are the same but some fundamentals are different.
Basically its the difference between studying the German longsword of
Lichtenauer or the Italian longsword of Fiore.

As of now there are a few systems I've looked into.

There are the Italian systems:
Fabris (Dylan's personal area of expertise).
Capo Ferro
Agrippa

There are German systems, mostly Meyer's sidesword.

There are Spanish systems (destreza):
de Carranza
de Narvaez

This isn't a voting thread persay but I do want people to start
discussing what rapier system we want to focus on as a club. Like I
said, it will be helpful to me so that I can really start getting some
classes ready for the summer with Dylan.
Lifetime HEMAA Member
Kron Martial Arts, CA
Psalm 119:89
"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
Salvator Fabris, 1606

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Myles Cupp
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:26 pm

Okay well Dylan and I had a bit of a chat (and anyone reading this thread was probably part of it) and we decided to have two sets of curriculum going simultaneously; one in Italian rapier to be led by Dylan and one in Spanish rapier to be led by me.

The idea will be to separate the lessons into two distinct sets and for the study group to advance with knowledge of both systems. Our intention is to avoid bastardizing the system with a hybrid curriculum while not outright ignoring the very organic and dynamic circumstances under which rapier was developed. Indeed, some elements of the Spanish system were designed as specific counters to Italian concepts. The historic masters would've been familiar with both systems anyway.

For my destreza work, I plan to draw heavily upon the destreza resources compiled by Puck Curtis. His website is here:
http://www.destreza.us/

Also, some of his videos are very informative resources. One of his best known of course is probably this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLEvUr9hVU4

I was actually able to pull off the move at 3:10 in sparring against Dylan so I have great confidence in pursuing destreza further.

I'll leave it to Dylan to post what resources he plans to build the Italian curriculum from. Let's also not forget to get in touch with people outside the community and on this forum who have much more experience with rapier than us.
Lifetime HEMAA Member
Kron Martial Arts, CA
Psalm 119:89
"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
Salvator Fabris, 1606

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John P
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby John P » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:19 am

Puck is an amazing resource we have been in touch with him over the last year and he has help one of our students get a very good hand on Spanish rapier.

Here is the tutorial Richard Marsden made

http://www.worksofrichardmarsden.com/ba ... rapier.htm

Here is a video of footwork & measure of proportion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8ovmb7E0I

Here is Eduardo fighting Randy who is the best Italian style fighter in the high school group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-3tiEo7Pqg

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Kevin Murakoshi
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Kevin Murakoshi » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:34 pm

I would really avoid trying to study two different rapier systems at the same time. Since the underlying theory is so different in each system, there's a real chance of confusing people with conflicting theory and terminology. I would strongly recommend that you pick one and work with it before trying to do the other.

Honestly, to start with, I would recommend the early 17th century rapier systems (Capoferro, Giganiti and Fabris). All three major works are available in translation (well, Fabris, is a bit hard to find now), good solid simulators are available, and there has been a lot of research done on them already, so you don't have to start from scratch.

Of those three, I would echo Tom Leoni in recommending Giganti as a first manual. The material is much clearer than Capoferro's, and it's considerably shorter than Fabris.

That said, I work with Puck on a weekly basis, co-teaching our Spanish Rapier class, and would be happy to help if you have any questions. I'm also quite familiar with the early 17th century Italian material as well, and would he happy to help there too.

** Edited to include Puck's name.
Last edited by Kevin Murakoshi on Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Myles Cupp
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:34 pm

I'll definitely pass on these recommendations to the rest of the group if they haven't seen you guys' posts already. Nothing has been set in stone yet and nothing likely will be until the end of the school semester (though we do want to start as soon as we can!).

And Kevin I am confused by your next to last sentence. Who is it you work with co-teaching Spanish rapier?

Ahh, the positive of HEMA is that there is so much to study! :D

And, the negative of HEMA is that there is so much to study! :D

PS
Are there any good websites or printed translations either of you guys would recommend (for the Italian system)?
Lifetime HEMAA Member
Kron Martial Arts, CA
Psalm 119:89
"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
Salvator Fabris, 1606

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Kevin Murakoshi
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Location: Davis, CA
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Kevin Murakoshi » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:19 pm

Myles Cupp wrote:And Kevin I am confused by your next to last sentence. Who is it you work with co-teaching Spanish rapier?


Maestro Puck Curtis (destreza.us), Maestro Eric Myers (who translated Figuredo's Montane Manual) and I teach a Spanish Rapier class based on Puck and Mary's research in Sacramento. Puck was my first teacher in WMA and was also my White Scarf in the SCA.

PS
Are there any good websites or printed translations either of you guys would recommend (for the Italian system)?


For a first manual, I highly recommend Tom Leoni's Giganti Translation http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/venetianrapier.aspx which is an excellent first manual for early 17th century Italian Rapier.

Guy Windsor's The Duellist's Companion is an excellent introduction to Rapier training.

The Wilson and Swanger Capoferro translation is also decent, and the manual I started with. http://mac9.ucc.nau.edu/manuscripts/CapoFerro-GRAUF.pdf

There is also the Order of the Seven Hearts website, which is a good resource for questions about Italian rapier: http://salvatorfabris.com/
Other than that, there's viahup.com (a small project that we were involved with) http://viahup.com
David Coblentz and I have, in the past, posted lesson sequences to our blogs http://www.thecoblog.net and http://gumbyfencer.com

Other than those, there are good articles on Italian rapier in Spada 1 and 2, In Service to Mars, and Teaching and Interpreting Historical Swordsmanship

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Camden
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Camden » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:38 pm

Fighting with the rapier recently has been great, and I really look forward to learning more. I'm not sure what "style" I'm doing, but it seems to be pretty good. ;)
I definitely should buy one soon, even though they are pricey...
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Myles Cupp
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Re: Kron Rapier Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:14 pm

Its been a while since my last update in this thread which is unfortunate since SO much activity has been going on for the Rapier Study Group.

First, we've had a few dedicated side practices devoted to studying the rapier. I've settled along with some other members (notably Dylan and Brian) to learning the Fabris material from a copy of Leoni's translation of Fabris which is in our possession. The stuff is downright amazing.

Also, we've also been meeting up with some local SCA rapier fencers to get more experience at the basic fundamentals through some freeplay. Video should hopefully be forthcoming on that at some point (once our photographer gets back from being out of the continental US).
Lifetime HEMAA Member
Kron Martial Arts, CA
Psalm 119:89
"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
Salvator Fabris, 1606


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