Messer Study Group

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RJ McKeehan
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby RJ McKeehan » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:12 pm

For me price range would depend on the material the messer is made of. I'd pay more for steel obviously haha. Nylon - 40-50ish maybe a little more if it was justified. Steel 50-70. Ballpark figures.
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby william_cain_iii » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:34 pm

Those are unfortunately kinda low. Most Aluminum or steel messers I see run into the hundreds of dollars unfortunately.

Given that the longsword is so central to what we do, and how much it takes for folk to invest in gear for sparring and drilling for that, I think the messer group is going to have to stick to the paddeds for the time being.
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby Myles Cupp » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:15 am

Indeed I'd only be interested in spending less than 70-80 dollars because I would buy two messers to study with my brother.

For the time being, the boffers are the most cost-effective option. When the kits are ready, we will have to make it very clear that the boffers are NOT the extent of our equipment acquisitions.
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby william_cain_iii » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:37 am

One thing that we want to make sure to pay attention to with these study groups is that we aren't neglecting the primacy of our longsword study.

The longsword is a pedagogical weapon - it has something to say on most other arts. The foundational three - ringen, dagger, and longsword - can teach us something about every other melee weapon out there, so we need to make sure that everyone who's in an alternate weapon study group also tacks onto a longsword study group to keep focus.

Having handled an aluminium messer trainer, I can say it wasn't that much heavier than the boffer types. Maybe about twice the weight, which still wasn't that much. One modification we might be interested in is pinning or sewing down the 'sides' of the blade so it has a more clear edge, but that might also be getting into the realm of too much work.
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby RJ McKeehan » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:06 pm

Well since the Tinker is 150 and you got it on sale for 100... I didn't think it would be a stretch to take a few bucks off for way less steel :/
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby Jason Taylor » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:01 am

RJ McKeehan wrote:Well since the Tinker is 150 and you got it on sale for 100... I didn't think it would be a stretch to take a few bucks off for way less steel :/



Unfortunately, the market doesn't seem to agree with us on that point (because I think it's logical, too). Looks like the fact that Messer is more "niche" is the main problem--less market = higher price.

william_cain_iii wrote:One thing that we want to make sure to pay attention to with these study groups is that we aren't neglecting the primacy of our longsword study.

The longsword is a pedagogical weapon - it has something to say on most other arts. The foundational three - ringen, dagger, and longsword - can teach us something about every other melee weapon out there, so we need to make sure that everyone who's in an alternate weapon study group also tacks onto a longsword study group to keep focus.

Having handled an aluminium messer trainer, I can say it wasn't that much heavier than the boffer types. Maybe about twice the weight, which still wasn't that much. One modification we might be interested in is pinning or sewing down the 'sides' of the blade so it has a more clear edge, but that might also be getting into the realm of too much work.


Will: Good point on remaining focused on Longsword. That is our primary tool and pedagogically the most important weapon in our particular flavor of HEMA (since we're not a Silver/Bolgnese/Fabris-only group, mainly). However, we don't need a longsword study group separate from the main meetings, since our main meetings will always be primarily focused on JLT longsword, at least for now, with other weapons thrown in for occasional flavor and the general benefits of crosstraining.

Just wanted to clarify--didn't want anybody thinking they had to start a study group to practice the JLT material.

I think we can find relatively decent Messer prices if we look around, tough I don't know if we'll get far below 100 unless we go wood. Plastic will probably be very expensive indeed, since they'll be custom made and so forth.

I'll do some looking. Maybe the Kron giant shopping robot can find us some deals, at least on non-metallic trainers.

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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby Jason Taylor » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:16 am

Okay, let's focus on pedagogy here. We need manual material to start really studying Messer.

This is where Will's point on the longsword really makes a lot of sense. In fact, the most substantial Messer manual seems to be Lecküchner (and his various spellings), who was a member of the Gesellschaft Liechtenauers and so probably trained under The Man Himself. That's a good basis, because he has the same general terminology and principles as JLT longsword.

In fact, Lecküchner's Messer material is primarily derived from the longsword stuff, so to really get a lot of his Messer, you have to know longsword.

Here's a link to the only free online one I know of for Lecküchner: http://www.schielhau.org/lebkommer.html.

I haven't gotten much into the material yet. However, I do know of one more possibly helpful translation, the terminology guide of Magister Andreas. For this one yo really need the JLT basis, because he actually says "this equals that over in longsword" throughout.

I recommend yo all save off and print out a copy of both of these and make them your training guide to take with you to practice. That way we all have something to work on during Messer practice, when we get some trainers and can work them in during practice. Which hopefully will be soon.

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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:38 am

Jason Taylor wrote:In fact, the most substantial Messer manual seems to be Lecküchner (and his various spellings), who was a member of the Gesellschaft Liechtenauers and so probably trained under The Man Himself.

That's a good basis, because he has the same general terminology and principles as JLT longsword.

In fact, Lecküchner's Messer material is primarily derived from the longsword stuff, so to really get a lot of his Messer, you have to know longsword.

... :(

Lecküchner was not part of the Geselschaft Liechtenauers, and was born almost fifty years after Liechtenauer's teachings were recorded in MS 3227a. I wouldn't expect him to have even been aware of Liechtenauer during his lifetime. Lecküchner uses a verse similar to Liechtenauer, but with a lot of variation and difference, probably because "Liechtenauer's" verse was a common teaching that Liechtenauer just happened to also teach. And I'm not sure messer and longsword are any more intimately connection than, say, sword & buckler and longsword, or dagger and messer.

:ugeek: Sorry, but that statement astounded me (though I probably would have nodded along with it a few years ago).

Jason Taylor wrote:Here's a link to the only free online one I know of for Lecküchner: http://www.schielhau.org/lebkommer.html.

Falko Fritze of Hammaborg is working on a translation of the big manual, which I in turn am working on loading into the wiki:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Johannes_Leck%C3%BCchner

Your link is to the Lebkommer stuff from Egenolff, which is a sort of gutted summary of Lecküchner mingled with the messer teachings of Andre Paurnfeyndt. Paurnfeyndt is actually really good for beginners, so it's not a bad starting point.

Jason Taylor wrote:I haven't gotten much into the material yet. However, I do know of one more possibly helpful translation, the terminology guide of Magister Andreas. For this one yo really need the JLT basis, because he actually says "this equals that over in longsword" throughout.

Here's a link on that:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Codex_Speyer_%28MS_M.I.29%29
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby william_cain_iii » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:54 pm

Fair enough, I was mostly making the assertion because more involvement = good. Yes, there is a lot of longsword covered in the main meetings, but there is also a lot more that could be covered throughout the week.

That said, I can only come once a week myself, and others may be making it to more than one meeting, so..

I'm going to -try- to make it Wednesday and Saturday this week since we didn't do anything last week, but money might be tight. There's an interesting purchase I have in mind for the near future.
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Re: Messer Study Group

Postby Jason Taylor » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:09 am

Michael Chidester wrote:
Jason Taylor wrote:In fact, the most substantial Messer manual seems to be Lecküchner (and his various spellings), who was a member of the Gesellschaft Liechtenauers and so probably trained under The Man Himself.

That's a good basis, because he has the same general terminology and principles as JLT longsword.

In fact, Lecküchner's Messer material is primarily derived from the longsword stuff, so to really get a lot of his Messer, you have to know longsword.

... :(

Lecküchner was not part of the Geselschaft Liechtenauers, and was born almost fifty years after Liechtenauer's teachings were recorded in MS 3227a. I wouldn't expect him to have even been aware of Liechtenauer during his lifetime.


Wow. Manual and history fail for my part. That's great to know--though in my defense, I read that somewhere while I was doing my research and just sort of took it at face value. Thanks for the correction. Of course, I can't remember where I read it now, so it was probably a forum post, which I should know better than not to fact check.

Michael Chidester wrote:Lecküchner uses a verse similar to Liechtenauer, but with a lot of variation and difference, probably because "Liechtenauer's" verse was a common teaching that Liechtenauer just happened to also teach. And I'm not sure messer and longsword are any more intimately connection than, say, sword & buckler and longsword, or dagger and messer.


I'm not really saying they're more intimately connected, necessarily, but that the manuals I mentioned seem to connect them pretty closely, what with the verses and the similar plays in Lebkommer (more on that in a moment) and Andreas' this = that approach.

Michael Chidester wrote::ugeek: Sorry, but that statement astounded me (though I probably would have nodded along with it a few years ago).


Fair enough. I always like your input here, but especially on manual history and accuracy. You're the doctor there.

Michael Chidester wrote:
Jason Taylor wrote:Here's a link to the only free online one I know of for Lecküchner: http://www.schielhau.org/lebkommer.html.

Falko Fritze of Hammaborg is working on a translation of the big manual, which I in turn am working on loading into the wiki:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Johannes_Leck%C3%BCchner

Your link is to the Lebkommer stuff from Egenolff, which is a sort of gutted summary of Lecküchner mingled with the messer teachings of Andre Paurnfeyndt. Paurnfeyndt is actually really good for beginners, so it's not a bad starting point.

That's good to know as well. The schielhau link takes yuo to the Lebkommer stuff, then, even though it's labeled as Lecküchner. I thought they were just modified spellings, but it makes more sense now.

Michael Chidester wrote:
Jason Taylor wrote:I haven't gotten much into the material yet. However, I do know of one more possibly helpful translation, the terminology guide of Magister Andreas. For this one yo really need the JLT basis, because he actually says "this equals that over in longsword" throughout.

Here's a link on that:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Codex_Speyer_%28MS_M.I.29%29


Thanks! I forgot to include that in the original post.

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