dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

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mackenzie cosens
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dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby mackenzie cosens » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Hi,

I am starting to practice some dall'Agocchie, as presented by Steven Reich in The Essential Actions of Giovanni dall'Agocchie. BTW, Thanks making it available.

I am looking at the actions from Porta di Ferro Stretta, and I have a question about the mechanics of the Imbroccata in particular, when to step back? Note: I am making an assumption that once I have made the Imbroccata that I will be passing back to my initial starting position.

When I am at the full extension of the thrust with the pass of the right foot, and I transition back to Porta di Ferro Stretta do I transition to Porta di Ferro Stretta then step back or do I step back while transitioning or do I step back then transition?

The first method is the simplest to train and it conditions the thrust as a complete and separate action from the stepping.
The second method is perhaps a bit faster
The third method follows 17C rapier (sort-of) as its model: full extension in the thrust perhaps transition to an extended 3rd, followed by a withdrawal of the head, body, leg then arm.

Which is the best way?
Thanks Mackenzie

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Dan Sellars
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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby Dan Sellars » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:44 am

I assume you mean the actions in the tables at the end here?

Interesting. The way I see it, and I am far from expert here just a diliante, is that you pass forward with the imroccata so you are already right foot forward, hence recovering to Porta di Ferro Stretta is just a case of recovering the sword hand.

So to take one example against a mandritto:
Start in porta di ferro stretta (by definition right leg forward)
Pass with your left foot out to the opponents right and parry with a riverso squalimbro in the same action
Then pass again with the right foot and deliver the imbroccata.
Recover to Porta di Ferro Stretto. This a right leg forward guard (otherwise a different guard name would be used) so just bring your hand down from the extended thrust.

Note: I am making an assumption that once I have made the Imbroccata that I will be passing back to my initial starting position.


So I think, imho, that this assumption is incorrect. EDIT: because you will either have stabbed him or he will have retreated from you.

I hope that helps.

Dan.
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mackenzie cosens
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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby mackenzie cosens » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:51 pm

Thanks Dan,

You're probably right about the recovery I am pretty much drilling these action for the simple mechanics, but I should practice a forward recovery by gathering the rear foot and a backward recovery by withdrawing the forward foot rather the doing just one.

Viggiani’s description of a similar action appears to imply that I should return to Porta di Ferro Stretta before recovering the foot. So I will drill it that way until I can find a better description.

I guess I should read through Dall' Agocchie, and see what he has to say too.

Thanks
Mackenzie

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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby Steven Reich » Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:43 pm

Sorry I haven't responded sooner, but I was at Fechtschule America for the last few days.

As to the Imbroccata into Porta di Ferro Stretta (PdFS), I don't believe Dall'Agocchie gives clear instruction as to how to synchronize the step, however, earlier in the work he lists PdFS as the ending guard of an Imbroccata in the same way as it is the ending to a (Mezzo) Mandritto. Therefore, assuming that the sword wasn't stuck too deeply in the opponent (in which case, I'd probably continue forward), I think that I'd consider the turning into PdFS as part of the motion of the thrust. That said, the pass back should probably begin the instant that the foot lands from the step forward, so you might think of it in terms of your first way with it actually behaving the second way at full speed. It seems unlikely (to me) that he meant it the third way (if he did, I would have expected him to say something like, "pass back in Guardia d'Alicorno, then go into PdFS).

I guess I mostly waffled on this answer...

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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby Dan Sellars » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:14 am

Steven Reich wrote:Sorry I haven't responded sooner, but I was at Fechtschule America for the last few days.

As to the Imbroccata into Porta di Ferro Stretta (PdFS), I don't believe Dall'Agocchie gives clear instruction as to how to synchronize the step, however, earlier in the work he lists PdFS as the ending guard of an Imbroccata in the same way as it is the ending to a (Mezzo) Mandritto. Therefore, assuming that the sword wasn't stuck too deeply in the opponent (in which case, I'd probably continue forward), I think that I'd consider the turning into PdFS as part of the motion of the thrust. That said, the pass back should probably begin the instant that the foot lands from the step forward, so you might think of it in terms of your first way with it actually behaving the second way at full speed. It seems unlikely (to me) that he meant it the third way (if he did, I would have expected him to say something like, "pass back in Guardia d'Alicorno, then go into PdFS).

I guess I mostly waffled on this answer...

Steve


Steve, so you do think he means to move back from the thrust with a pass (or I assume two in order to be in PdFS otherwise would you not be in CPdF)? When I was practising it, as I said above, I was assuming that he just meant to settle back into PdFS by recovering the sword hand from the extended imbroccata.
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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby Steven Reich » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:18 am

Dan Sellars wrote:Steve, so you do think he means to move back from the thrust with a pass (or I assume two in order to be in PdFS otherwise would you not be in CPdF)? When I was practising it, as I said above, I was assuming that he just meant to settle back into PdFS by recovering the sword hand from the extended imbroccata.

In this case, I think you're right. That is, just "recover" into PdFS.

From a philosophical perspective, if I was teaching this action, I wouldn't consider it complete until the had retreated out of measure after the attack--probably with two passes back. So in this case, I'd have you do the action as is, recovering into PdFS. Then immediately, I'd have you do a Falso Manco as you passed back with your right foot and a Mezzo Mandritto as you passed back with your left foot to end in PdFS out of measure. Alternatively, instead of the Falso Manco and Mezzo Mandritto, I might have you do a Riverso Sgualembrato as a molinello to the inside as you passed back with your right foot into Coda Lunga Alta, followed by a pass back with your left foot to end in PdFS. Dall'Agoccie doesn't really give these covering actions in his techniques, but they are in Marozzo in nearly every place that he has you retreat after making an attack.

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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby mackenzie cosens » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:14 pm

Thanks Steven & Dan

I will change my drilling to match what you suggest. Adding the defensive actions might even help cure my current problem of posing dramatically in the extended imbroccata (1st) before returning to PdFS.

mackenzie

Steven Reich wrote:...

From a philosophical perspective, if I was teaching this action, I wouldn't consider it complete until the had retreated out of measure after the attack--probably with two passes back. So in this case, I'd have you do the action as is, recovering into PdFS. Then immediately, I'd have you do a Falso Manco as you passed back with your right foot and a Mezzo Mandritto as you passed back with your left foot to end in PdFS out of measure. Alternatively, instead of the Falso Manco and Mezzo Mandritto, I might have you do a Riverso Sgualembrato as a molinello to the inside as you passed back with your right foot into Coda Lunga Alta, followed by a pass back with your left foot to end in PdFS. Dall'Agoccie doesn't really give these covering actions in his techniques, but they are in Marozzo in nearly every place that he has you retreat after making an attack.

Steve

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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby mackenzie cosens » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:10 am

Hi,
I tried both of your suggestions and they make my drilling feel much more correct and complete.
I am assuming that the Falso Manco is a simple false edge cut from PdFS to Guradia Alta, is this correct?

Thanks for the help.
mackenzie

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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby Steven Reich » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:27 am

mackenzie cosens wrote:I tried both of your suggestions and they make my drilling feel much more correct and complete.

Ideally, every play should end with a retreat accompanied by a covering action (excepting those that end with grappling or full impalement, of course).

mackenzie cosens wrote:I am assuming that the Falso Manco is a simple false edge cut from PdFS to Guardia Alta, is this correct?

Yes, that's correct. Alternatively, it could be from Porta di Ferro Larga (in other actions). Also, depending upon when you are using it, you might make a preparation by dropping the point of your sword from PdFS into or nearly into PdFL--probably not in this particular action, though. However, experiment and see how everything feels.

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Re: dall'Agocchie: mechanics passing back from Imbroccata?

Postby mackenzie cosens » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:56 pm

Steven Reich wrote:...
Yes, that's correct. Alternatively, it could be from Porta di Ferro Larga (in other actions). Also, depending upon when you are using it, you might make a preparation by dropping the point of your sword from PdFS into or nearly into PdFL--probably not in this particular action, though. However, experiment and see how everything feels.

Steve


I played a little with dropping the point and playing with what could be called a loose hand: fore finger and thumb controlling the sword and the other three fingers loose and a relaxed wrist, the point follows the edge in the cut until 'flicking' the wrist to accelerate the blade.

The "Essential Actions of Giovanni dall’Agocchie" has two ending guardia, PdFS for opponents to the outside and Coda Lunga e Stretta for opponents to the inside. What are the covering actions of CLeS?

Can I use same covering actions as PdFS or since the opponent is expected to be on my left and the my sword is to my right, should the first cut be right to left with passing of the right foot, followed by cut from left to right with the passing of the left foot? example Cut Falso drittio to Guardia il Sopra Braccio and then a Riverso to CLeS?

Thanks again,
mackenzie


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