dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

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Dan Sellars
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dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Dan Sellars » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:54 am

dall'Agocchie gives some advice when he is talking about covering with a falso dritto when wanting to wound with a mandritto.

Which seems to com down to:
Turn wrist downwards and body behind right side
hit almost with the true edge
turn a dritto trammazzone in the same tempo

So that:
you will distance you opponents sword further from you
you will parry and strike almost in one tempo
your sword will always be in presence

and he cautions:
you need a limber body and a fast wrist

So what action do you think he is describing here? I keep coming up with some kind of 'hanging parry' that immediately goes into a dritto tramazzone but I don't see how this always stays in presence. I am not sure 'hanging parry' is the best way of describing what I mean as it is more of a dynamic action but it is the only way I can see wrist down and almost hit with the true edge while turning a dritto tramazzone.
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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Steven Reich » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:54 am

I don't have the text with me (I'm at work), but I kind of remember the advice you're talking about.

Dan Sellars wrote:dall'Agocchie gives some advice when he is talking about covering with a falso dritto when wanting to wound with a mandritto.

[...]

So what action do you think he is describing here? I keep coming up with some kind of 'hanging parry' that immediately goes into a dritto tramazzone but I don't see how this always stays in presence. I am not sure 'hanging parry' is the best way of describing what I mean as it is more of a dynamic action but it is the only way I can see wrist down and almost hit with the true edge while turning a dritto tramazzone.

Let's go with a specific example. I can't remember for certain, but I believe his action was against a cut; however, I'll illustrate with a thrust as it's simpler to visualize.

First, imagine that someone is thrusting to your chest on your inside. You might parry this in sort of Guardia di Faccia or Porta di Ferro Alta--rather like a 4th parry in classical French or Italian fencing. Now turn your hand about 135 degrees so that you are performing the same parry with your false edge (your palm downward with your thumb pointing between 10 and 11 o'clock). You should notice that you either need to move your hand more to your inside or that you need to profile your body more in order to be safe.

Okay, so having performed that parry, without losing contact with your opponent's blade turn a Tramazzone--a molinello with your wrist so that your sword turns around your left side (it doesn't have to be a big molinello) and deliver a Mandritto to the opponent's head. At the point where your cut ends, your true-edge will be against your opponent's sword.

Now if you do this at speed, you'll find that you end up hitting kind of with the flat--almost with the true edge--and everything blends together to the point that although it is sort of a "parry-riposte", it all happens in one continuous motion. I don't know how the sword would always stay in presence, especially since a cut has to stay from out of presence, but it won't go far out of presence if the Tramazzone is small.

Note that if you were parrying on a true edge with a hanging parry, Dall'Agocchie would most likely tell you to parry in Guardia di Testa, since his form of that guard is a hanging guard. He actually has that exact action against a Mandritto: Parry in Guardia di Testa, then deliver a Mandritto Tramazzone to the opponent's head. I don't remember where it is, but if you look, I'm sure you'll find it.

Anyway, that's my take on things. Hope that helps.

Steve

[*Note: edited to fix some incorrect nomenclature. Evidently, I can't tell the difference between Guardia di Faccia and Guardia di Testa until I've had my morning coffee.]
Last edited by Steven Reich on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Dan Sellars » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:36 am

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the response. I see what you are saying and had also wondered along similar lines, just not quite like that. Are you suggesting that the blade kind of stays in contact with the opponents through this action?

wrt the hanging parry do you mean Guadia di Testa? he does have some actions like that which is why I was thinking it seemed weird to have two ways of describing it.

Thanks again,
Dan.
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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Steven Reich » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:43 am

Dan Sellars wrote:Thanks for the response. I see what you are saying and had also wondered along similar lines, just not quite like that. Are you suggesting that the blade kind of stays in contact with the opponents through this action?

Yes, I think it does (ideally).

Dan Sellars wrote:wrt the hanging parry do you mean Guadia di Testa? he does have some actions like that which is why I was thinking it seemed weird to have two ways of describing it.

Oops! Yes, Guardia di Testa (I'll change that in my original post, too).

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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Sean M » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Like a duller Alcibiades I am coming late to the party, but I always find it easier to understand these things with examples. Can we find any examples of this parry in dall"Agocchie's work? Looking through my catalogue of his defences against direct attacks, I can find the best examples against an imbroccata and against a stoccata from Coda Longa Stretta on page 16r. I can't find any examples of using it against a cut in my catalogue, but I have not worked though all the material with a partner.

My first guess at this was a movement like a mandritto ridoppio, except that the false edge is up and the wrist is bent so that your hand points to the ground to your companion's left side. However, I'm not sure if Ilka agreed in 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPJGPA-9KA&feature=plcp starting at 3:12 just after the riverso ridoppio and 3:30 just after the last imbroccata).

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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Sean M » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:25 pm

I spent some time checking the full text, since this was one of the things that I noticed was hard to interpret back in 2010. He also has examples of the same parry on 15r, 17r, and 22r against the mandritto to the leg. I don't like how my interpretation feels, but my one handed sword is a clumsy Hanwei Norman with a pommel the size of a party leader's ego, and its not a movement that I practice elsewhere. I think that my first guess is close to the interpretation that Steve had settled on when he last posted to this thread, but I'm not sure I understand his description.

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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Dan Sellars » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:42 am

Having spent more time with the text now (still not nearly enough) I think that what he is meaning is kind of as i described in my first post. The only time he uses an action like this that I can seeing his specific examples it seems he is performing a falso dritto an coming under the opponents sword then performing what amounts to a tramazzone. This why I think he says you need to be good at it or you could fling it onto your own face.

I think that is what you referenced too?
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Re: dall'Agocchies advice on falso dritto

Postby Sean M » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:45 am

I think that you, Steve, Ilka, and I are all describing something similar, although I have a little bit of difficulty understanding your and Steve's descriptions. The line is diagonally upwards from right to left, the hand is higher than the point, the wrist is bent at a right angle, and the cut is with the false edge. Could the fact that all of us have trouble describing it, like dall'Agocchie did, tell us something?


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