Alex Kiermayer wrote:Meyer teaches the same concept as Viggiani does with his punta sopra mano. He begins from Wechsel (or porta di ferro larga) strikes upwards with either the short edge, the long edge or the flat, ending in Ochs and then thrusts a "Stoß über die Hand" or literaly translated punta sopramano. I havent found this terminology in German fencing manuals prior to Meyer. So it is not only the method but also the terminology that in some cases lets us think of a relationship to the Bolognese stuff.
This is similar to the Bolognese and a neat observation. I only work for the Forgeng translation (I really need to learn to read German better), so I miss these types of things.
Alex Kiermayer wrote:Also the presentation of his material via plays from every guard is similar to the Bolognese material. Does anybody know if this does appear elsewhere in Italy? Certainly it is not typical for the German stuff.
Good catch, although this is more characteristic of Manciolino and Dall'Agocchie than Marozzo (who instead tends to give his material in terms of links of set-plays collected in assalti or abbattimenti--except for one little section at the end of the Spadone section).
Alex Kiermayer wrote:On the other hand Meyer mentiones in the Rostock manuscript that he has drawn his Rappier from different nations, two of them being the Italian and the Neapolitan. He doesn`t mention Bologna directly.
Also in the Rostock manuscript there is a section dealing with one handed swords that uses the terms Dusack, Messer and Rappier interchangably. The material therein is classical Messer stuff, but not the direct Leckuechner tradition, it seems to be an offshoot or a different tradition with similar names.
Good additions to the conversation--I haven't tried to read the manuscript (and it probably would not have done much good), so I didn't know this. I really hope that we'll find more information, because there are a lot of gaps in our knowledge about 1500s Northern Italian schools as they relate to each other and other schools.
What I find to be interesting is the question of how many "Bolognese" masters were teaching at any one time (i.e. not necessarily all of the masters in Bologna, but the number of masters who taught the same system as Manciolino and Marozzo). Also, how do the various Italian systems relate? We have some terminology which is shared with pretty much every Italian tradition (e.g. Mandritto, Riverso, Stramazzone), some that are present in more than one but don't necessarily mean exactly the same thing (Porta di Ferro, Coda Lunga, Guardia di Falcone, Montante), and some that appear in only one tradition (Assalto di Leone). Finally, how do Meyer and maybe Sanct-Didier fit into all of this?