Zucken

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Mike Edelson
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Re: Zucken

Postby Mike Edelson » Wed May 18, 2011 9:29 am

Peter S wrote:
Mike Cartier wrote:Meyer says that pulling is the beginning of all deception.

I kind of read it like Jake describes but i also allow for Zucken from a bind if necessary.

I differentiate Zucken as pulling back towards you, Abnehmen as lifting over, and Durchweseln as dipping under, the latter two by rotating the sword more or less around the crossguard/hands/CoB as it happens to work at the time. But pulling back as well helps to avoid snagging on his blade and failing to get past it. I wasn't aware of the Meyer quote, thanks for it.



The way durchwechseln is described makes it sound more like the tip "snaps over" when he hits your sword, so it's kinda like back towards you. But then these are all variations on the same principle, so I don't think it matters too much what you call it.
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Re: Zucken

Postby Mike Cartier » Wed May 18, 2011 12:47 pm

Peter S wrote:
Mike Cartier wrote:
Meyer says that pulling is the beginning of all deception.

I kind of read it like Jake describes but i also allow for Zucken from a bind if necessary.
I differentiate Zucken as pulling back towards you, Abnehmen as lifting over, and Durchweseln as dipping under, the latter two by rotating the sword more or less around the crossguard/hands/CoB as it happens to work at the time. But pulling back as well helps to avoid snagging on his blade and failing to get past it. I wasn't aware of the Meyer quote, thanks for it.




Well not quite for me in my little Meyer world, Umbwechseln and Durchwechselen are changing handworks either above or below the opponents weapon which by their nature are unbroken energy, that is the energy of the strike is not arrested but instead redirected smoothly to the new target. A Zucken is pulling or arresting the energy of the strike and striking back away to another target.
There are other similar handworks to changing as well like looping.
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Re: Zucken

Postby Jake Norwood » Wed May 18, 2011 1:13 pm

Mike Cartier wrote: A Zucken is pulling or arresting the energy of the strike and striking back away to another target.
There are other similar handworks to changing as well like looping.


I really like this definition.
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Re: Zucken

Postby korzalm » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:26 pm

How do you Zucken faster and more efficiently regarding mechanics?

The only thing I could come up with was that push-pull (I mean, pull with the front hand and push with the back hand).
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Re: Zucken

Postby KeithFarrell » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:49 am

korzalm wrote:How do you Zucken faster and more efficiently regarding mechanics?

The only thing I could come up with was that push-pull (I mean, pull with the front hand and push with the back hand).


The "push pull" idea with the hands is a very inefficient way to do anything, especially if you want your hits to be able to cut and do some damage, rather than just landing as touches. A better set of mechanics is to keep the sword directly in front of your body, and move the body to the right place so that you can strike in a straight line with proper cutting mechanics. It might feel like more work in the short term, to have to use the feet more in order to move the body more, without letting the arms do what feels like a relatively simple push/pull action, but in the long term it will become easy through practice, and you will be ablet o have success with it in sparring, even at speeds and under a lot of pressure.
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Re: Zucken

Postby korzalm » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:23 am

KeithFarrell wrote:The "push pull" idea with the hands is a very inefficient way to do anything, especially if you want your hits to be able to cut and do some damage, rather than just landing as touches. A better set of mechanics is to keep the sword directly in front of your body, and move the body to the right place so that you can strike in a straight line with proper cutting mechanics. It might feel like more work in the short term, to have to use the feet more in order to move the body more, without letting the arms do what feels like a relatively simple push/pull action, but in the long term it will become easy through practice, and you will be ablet o have success with it in sparring, even at speeds and under a lot of pressure.


Thanks. So I should pull the sword back (zuck / ruck) by rotating the hips to the right or passing back?
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Re: Zucken

Postby KeithFarrell » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:53 am

korzalm wrote:Thanks. So I should pull the sword back (zuck / ruck) by rotating the hips to the right or passing back?


I would say that it depends greatly on the exact circumstances in which you find yourself. Sometimes you may have to do it one way, sometimes another, and sometimes yet another way. If you maintain good and correct structure throughout, and move your body to where it needs to be to deliver the technique with this structure, then this would be the right thing to do - so the question really becomes how to move your body to the right place in order to maintain your structure while delivering the technique, and the answer to that question depends on the situation, the distance, the size of your opponent, etc etc.
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