Zucken

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John Harmston
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Zucken

Postby John Harmston » Tue May 17, 2011 11:59 am

I am curious how the rest of you perform Zucken? I have a particular interpretation I like, but looking around online I have found a variety of others, some of which are real head-scrachers. Even the translation seems to vary wildly with Zucken sometimes translated as "pulling", sometimes as "twitching", and sometimes as "disengaging".

This is from Liechtenauer (http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Johannes_Lie ... %9Ffechten)

Text on Disengaging on the sword
Step close in binding
the disengaging gives good finding.
Disenge his hits disengaging finds more
work, do this always
as disengaging all engagements
will attain you the mastery.

Gloss:

Know to drive the Disengaging against masters who bind strongly on the sword and stay on the sword in the bind, and wait to see if he would strike off from you or pull off of the sword, that you can then follow after to the opening to reach or touch the same master, then drive the disengaging against him thus: strike him strongly from the right side high to the head, if he drives forward in the strike strongly with the sword and will displace or strike to the sword, then disengage your sword nimbly as and when you bind on and stab him on the other side, do this against all hits and binds of the sword.

Mark here another disengaging When he has bound onto your sword and then stays against you in the bind waiting to see if you would pull off of the sword, then do as if you would disengage yet stay on the sword and pull your sword on the half edge to you and stab him soon again on the sword to the face or chest, if you don't hit rightly with the stab then work with doubling or any other element that is the best for you.
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Re: Zucken

Postby Mike Edelson » Tue May 17, 2011 1:11 pm

I read that a bit differently...

So zuck dein swert an dich | ee | wenn er dir an pint | und stich jm zů der anderen seitten

So zuck (pull) your sword on (to) you in the event that he tries to bind and thrust to his other side.

Now my translation skills are shoddy at best, but Tobler says this:

"then pull your sword to you before he binds, and thrust to his other side"

The way I do it is if I know he is going to try to bind, like so many people like to walk into a bind, then I look like I'm going to let him then pull the sword and thrust to the other side before making contact.
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Re: Zucken

Postby John Harmston » Tue May 17, 2011 1:20 pm

Easier said than done.

Are you feinting to provoke the bind attempt?
How are you getting to the other side of his sword specifically?
How are you pulling your sword?
If he presses aggressively how are you clearing his tip to get to the other side?
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Re: Zucken

Postby Mike Edelson » Tue May 17, 2011 1:35 pm

John Harmston wrote:Easier said than done.


Isn't eveyrthing? :)

Are you feinting to provoke the bind attempt?


There is a section in durchwechseln (changing through) that I like to reference often. I'll use Tobler's translation for this because I haven't done that part yet:

"You should well learn to do this with foresight such that your opponent does not plant his blade on you, or otherwise come in while you are changing through."

In other words, you have to know what he's going to do, to be able to read him by testing his reactions. This applies to zucken as well (at least I think so).

So do I feint to provoke the bind? Sort of. More like I test his reaction with a twitch...apply pressure, then if he reacts like I think he will, I throw the cut and pull it away, towards me, when he tries to parry. If all goes well, it's zucken. If he hits my sword, it's durchwechseln (this is an oversimplification). I'm wrong, I die. But that's the case with everything you do in a sword fight, and part of your skill is the ability to read and manipulate your opponent into doing what you want him to do.

These are my 2 cents. I look forward to reading how others approach this.
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Re: Zucken

Postby Jake Norwood » Tue May 17, 2011 2:01 pm

Zucken mostly shows up two ways. For the cut-then-thrust, which is what we're discussing here, I do what Mike's talking about. It's not a feint, but rather a read, like Mike says. If I read that the cut isn't going to sink, indes I pull the hilt in tight and then thrust through. Works awesome.

This also appears as a strike to the other side, likewise best performed without actually hitting the bind.

I'll look up some references for the latter tomorrow, maybe.

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Re: Zucken

Postby Mike Cartier » Wed May 18, 2011 6:45 am

Meyer says that pulling is the beginning of all deception.

I kind of read it like Jake describes but i also allow for Zucken from a bind if necessary.
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Re: Zucken

Postby John Harmston » Wed May 18, 2011 8:14 am

Jake Norwood wrote:If I read that the cut isn't going to sink, indes I pull the hilt in tight and then thrust through.


Where is your tip while you are doing this?
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Re: Zucken

Postby Peter S » Wed May 18, 2011 8:34 am

Mike Cartier wrote:Meyer says that pulling is the beginning of all deception.

I kind of read it like Jake describes but i also allow for Zucken from a bind if necessary.

I differentiate Zucken as pulling back towards you, Abnehmen as lifting over, and Durchweseln as dipping under, the latter two by rotating the sword more or less around the crossguard/hands/CoB as it happens to work at the time. But pulling back as well helps to avoid snagging on his blade and failing to get past it. I wasn't aware of the Meyer quote, thanks for it.

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Re: Zucken

Postby Jake Norwood » Wed May 18, 2011 8:51 am

Peter S wrote:
Mike Cartier wrote:Meyer says that pulling is the beginning of all deception.

I kind of read it like Jake describes but i also allow for Zucken from a bind if necessary.

I differentiate Zucken as pulling back towards you, Abnehmen as lifting over, and Durchweseln as dipping under, the latter two by rotating the sword more or less around the crossguard/hands/CoB as it happens to work at the time. But pulling back as well helps to avoid snagging on his blade and failing to get past it. I wasn't aware of the Meyer quote, thanks for it.


That sounds about right to me, at least at first glance.

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Re: Zucken

Postby Jake Norwood » Wed May 18, 2011 8:51 am

John Harmston wrote:
Jake Norwood wrote:If I read that the cut isn't going to sink, indes I pull the hilt in tight and then thrust through.


Where is your tip while you are doing this?


In-line (still pointing at the guy)
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