Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

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Jeffrey Hull
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Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:42 pm

I would simply like to ask why the Meyer-1570 Chapter 8 translation by Mike Rasmusson at Wiktenauer does not match the Meyer-1570 Chapter 8 translation by Mike Rasmusson at his Schielhau.org? :?:

Which is correct? Where is a copy of the MS page to compare? Just what is the deal?

I am just trying to sort this out - any help in doing that is appreciated.

Regards,

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Michael Chidester
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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:46 am

I just skimmed the translation on both sites and didn't note any obvious differences, what specifically stands out to you?

If you were referring instead to the transcription, any differences are due to the fact that I didn't copy any transcriptions from Schielhau and instead went back to the original sources--in this case, the transcription from Die Freifechter: http://www.hauppauge.de/~freifechter/meyer.html

Since you asked, you can find a scan of the relevant page in the 1570 here: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/bsb ... 0/image_68
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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Jeremy S. » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:28 am

I think he's referring the the whole 'Indes' section being missing on the Wiktenauer page. It looks like it simply wasn't copied over

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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:46 am

Oh, weird. Just fixed that.
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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:51 am

Yes, as per my BSB PDF facsimile of Meyer-1570 that I finally found, it seems that the entire transcription & translation for the Indes section (§8/25r) is missing.

Here is MR's version of all that:

Indes
Just As

Das wort Indes haben vil verstanden sam het es sein ursprung von dem Latinischen wörtlein Intus, und begreiffe das inwendig Fechten in sich, welches aus den Winden und dergleichen arbeit herkompt, aber das diß nit also sey, würstu folgends hören.

The expression "Just As" has much meaning in that its origin is from the latin word "Intus" and is taken into fencing as such, which is applied in the Winding and similar work, however that this seem not only thus, you must hear what follows.

Das wörtlein Intus was es bedeutet laß ich den Latinis bleiben, aber das wörtlein Indes ist ein gut Teutsch wörtlein, un hat in sich ein ernstliche vermanung zu behender bedechtlichkeit, das einer alweg und geschwindt besonnen sey, als wan du erstlich in dem du zur Lincken schlechst, zum andern auch zugleich mit zur Rechten die Blös sehest, Denn zum dreitten ebenso wol warnemest so du der ersehenen Blöß zueiles, wo oder mit was stucken man dir zukommen möge, auff das du dich nicht an deines widerparts Blösse vergreiffest, und des schaden nemest. Also ermanet dich das wörtlein Indes, das du ein scharpff gesicht habest, welches zumal vil ersehen und warnemen, auch an deines gegenmans geberde gnugsam erlernen mögest, was für stuck er zu gebrauchen im sinn habe, und was dieselbige für Blösse mit sich bringen, und wo sie sich eröffnen werden. Dann in disen dingen allen welcher dich das wörtlein Indes ermanet, stehetalle kunst des Fechten (wie Lichtenawer sagt) unnd wo du solches nit warnimst, bedacht und fürsichtig alle Häuw führest, wirst leichtlich zu deinem schaden anlauffen, wie dann an allen Fechteren zusehen, welche einen also uberpolderen und (wie man sagt) oben aus und nirgent an wollen.

The expression "Intus" and what it means I will let remain Latin, however the expression "Indes" (Just As) is a good German expression and has in itself an important meaning to handy application, that one always and quickly take care, as in when you at first slash to the left, to then at the same time observe the opening to the right, then thirdly on to make sure that you attain the observed opening, where or with what actions you want to come unto it, that you don't then make openings for your opponent and take damage. Thus retain the meaning of "Just As" so that you observe sharply, which can be much observing and undertaking, also seek to learn faking to your opponent sufficiently, since he needs to have senses in his part, and similarly what Openings you will bring, and where you will be open. Then in all these things to which the expression "Just As" has meaning, stands the whole art of fencing (as Liechtenauer said) and where you don't undertake such to carefully and securely drive all strikes, will you advance lightly to your damage, as then all fencers will observe, which one thus overpowers and (as one said) tops out and nullifies as wanted.


Thanks for helping sort that out. I appreciate all the work you Mike C. and the other guys put into that ongoing and complex project. :)

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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Michael Chidester » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:09 am

Yeah, sorry, as I recall I built the whole Meyer page in a text document while working at my old job. There may be other bits and pieces that got lost during cutting and pasting as well. Thanks for pointing out the omission.
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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:53 am

It is okay - Meyer confuses me anyway - hah! ;)

If I happen to come across anything like that in future, could simply reach Wiktenauer directly - did not mean to trouble you.

And thanks again for all the scholarly work. :geek:

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Re: Confusion at Wiktenauer-Meyer

Postby Mike Cartier » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:30 pm

you insolent swines....
Meyer will do more than confuse you if he gets his hands on you!
-mike cartier
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http://www.freifechter.com


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