Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

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Michael Chidester
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Michael Chidester » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:29 am

Also, thank you all for the kind words. Wiktenauer has its share of very vocal critics, so it's nice to know that we've been able to serve some of you well.
Michael Chidester
Wiktenauer Director
HEMA Alliance, WMAC

Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt

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Myles Cupp
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Myles Cupp » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:36 am

I'm on the Wiktenauer every single day. Its so convenient to have all the manuals on a single website where I don't have to worry about being a member. People can criticize (and when I become more knowledgeable I might start criticizing stuff too!) but I say this resource is priceless.
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"For we all acknowledge that it is with the sword that Kingdoms are protected, Religions are defended, injuries are avenged and Nations achieve peace and happiness."
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Joel Norman
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Joel Norman » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:22 pm

I love the Wiktenauer! It's what the HEMA world has been needing. The only constructive criticism I have is that I wish more of the sections followed the format you used for the "Nuremberg Group." That's the kind of compilation I like the best. But it doesn't matter, as the Wiktenauer gives me most of what I need to make that sort of thing myself to print out as a book.
Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:5 - 7

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Michael-Forest
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Michael-Forest » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:20 pm

I, honestly, can't image why people are criticizing the Wiktenauer (unless they consider it competition!) It's an amazing resource.
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Michael Chidester
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Michael Chidester » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:33 pm

Joel Norman wrote:I love the Wiktenauer! It's what the HEMA world has been needing. The only constructive criticism I have is that I wish more of the sections followed the format you used for the "Nuremberg Group." That's the kind of compilation I like the best. But it doesn't matter, as the Wiktenauer gives me most of what I need to make that sort of thing myself to print out as a book.

What is different about Nuremberg?
Michael Chidester
Wiktenauer Director
HEMA Alliance, WMAC

Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt

Joel Norman
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Joel Norman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:09 am

I like the multiple images to compare with the texts, rather than the "best" image with multiple texts around it.
Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:5 - 7

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Michael Chidester
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Michael Chidester » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:47 am

As I was explaining to Ben Michels just a few days ago, there are a number of reasons why we don't use more than one image. In the first place, there are only seven manuscript groups that could even support such an arrangement: Fiore delli Liberi, Gladiatoria, Hans Talhoffer, Paulus Kal, Nuremberg, Joerg Wilhalm, and Paulus Hector Mair. That's less than a third of all the HEMA manuscripts out there. It's difficult to find even a single set of images to illustrate the rest of the manuscript groups, and the printed books generally use identical images. Of these seven, not a one of them has commonly available color scans of every entry (even with my resources, the only set that I have entirely in color is Fiore).

Furthermore, from a design standpoint there's simply no way to include all of the text and all of the images in a usable format. In the case of Paulus Kal, we did include all of them simply because only one had text. In the case of Nuremberg, we included two columns and four of the six sets of images; this is officially because we thought they provided a useful contrast (end honestly, some of the Wallerstein images are downright indecipherable without referencing the work of the more talented artists), and secretly because I found the appearance of the composite offensive when we tried having only one column with mixed images. It also ties into the fact that the images in column 2 come from text-less manuscripts, not unlike Paulus Kal (we also experimented with placing them in the appropriate manual columns, but liked all of the images in one place better).

For the others, even if we wanted to provide all of the images and had a viable means of displaying them, we'd be presenting a much larger target for copyright suits. The current scheme of organization is designed to balance the needs of the user against the legal exposure of using too many copyrighted images. Including only a single image column and relying as much as possible on images that are firmly in the public domain (the Pisani-Dossi Fiore, Dornhoffer's Durer, etc.) or mirrored from other public websites currently seems like the best way to achieve this.

When we do have lots of images available, full galleries are available on the manuscript pages for you to download and incorporate into your own version of the material.
Michael Chidester
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HEMA Alliance, WMAC

Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt

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Jordan Hinckley
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Jordan Hinckley » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:11 am

I think you are doing a great job with the Wiktenauer! it is a priceless resource for looking at different sytles of different teachers, and has honestly inspired me to come up with a composite list for my own practice that has different guard positions and their names in all the sources I can find just to have a common language for me to communicate with others.
"Though the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword speaks louder and stronger at any given moment." The Mouse that Roared by Leonard Wibberley
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Joel Norman
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Joel Norman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:43 am

I appreciate very much the being able to find the extra images I want for my own use. Like I said before, the Wiktenauer (in any format) is what a lot of us have needed for a long time.
Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:5 - 7

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Michael Chidester
Wiktenauer Project Director
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Re: Fiore on the Wiktenauer!

Postby Michael Chidester » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:35 pm

Major updates in this article:

  • I've rewritten the biography from the ground up, and it's now about thrice as long as before and incorporates the latest published research. This is something of a preview of the longer biographical article I'm drafting on Fiore which will go into considerably more depth. Fiore is really the only 14th or 15th century master whose life we can reconstruct to any significant degree.
  • Colin Hatcher, President of Schola Saint George, has become our newest contributor, offering us a complete translation of both versions of text for the grappling, baton, and dagger sections.
  • I myself have donated selections from the rough draft of my translation of the Morgan and Pisani-Dossi (I also threw together a little bit of Getty where necessary) to populate the Sword vs. Dagger and Sword in Armor sections.
  • Between Colin's work and my own, we now have translations of all of Fiore's work except for the mounted content. The translation of the Morgan armored stuff is particularly interesting, and caused me to completely reorganize the composite of that section. I might add a translation of the mounted stuff as well at some point soon to complete things.
  • The whole article has been restructured and a lot of images replaced or reframed to improve the overall function and look of the composite.
  • I've also given the associated manual pages and Vadi a tune-up.
Enjoy. The article can, as always, be found here:

http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fiore_delli_Liberi
Michael Chidester
Wiktenauer Director
HEMA Alliance, WMAC

Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt


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