Eastern European Saber

A forum for Polish and other Eastern European saber systems.
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Jake Norwood
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Jake Norwood » Tue May 27, 2014 8:55 am

I love my copy...
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Tyler Brandon
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Tyler Brandon » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:33 pm

A member of Ars Ensis (Hungary) has started an attempt to reconstruct 17th century Hungarian saber fencing.

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21048
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calvinhinz

Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby calvinhinz » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:33 pm

i'm interested in finding some reference pics of sabers from eastern europe, as we all well know its where the saber developed mostly due to the constant turkish invasion and close proximity to other like minded countries.


Cson
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Cson » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:44 am

Richard Marsden wrote:We'll need to trick someone into translating all the stuff you're finding!


Hi Richard. I think you can trick me into translating Gusztáv von Arlow's and Károly Leszek's books and the 1900 manual from Hungarian to English. A signed copy of your book on Polish Saber would do the trick. :lol:

Cson
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Cson » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:53 am

Tyler Brandon wrote:@Richard

After perusing the LOC website and re-reading The American Catholic Historical Researches, I am convicned that the 1778 letter from Pulaski to Washington is the full text of his cavalry regulations. They refer only broadly to organization. There is no specific info on saber or any other drill. Pulaski only recommends a Continental Army officer formerly of the Prussian Army named Kolach to serve as Master of Exercise to train officers and NCOs. I can find nothing on Kolach. Pulaski appears to be a dead end. Even so he seems to be very Prussian in orientation. But this just may be due to exigent circumstances of available texts and experience officers he held as capable.


Hi Tyler, Iím not sure for 100% but that Prussian officer called "Kolach" might be "Kovats" aka. Michael Kovach de Fabrinczy who also trained the US cavalry with Pulaski and later was KIA at Charleston. At first Washington thought he was just bragging but later he commended him for his actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Kovats

Cson
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Cson » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:46 pm

calvinhinz wrote:i'm interested in finding some reference pics of sabers from eastern europe, as we all well know its where the saber developed mostly due to the constant turkish invasion and close proximity to other like minded countries.


Here you go. Hungarian szablya from the 10th century to the 17th century.

10th century
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01992/html/index1190.html

13th-14th century
http://www.fuzertortenelme.hu/HADTORTENET/141.php

16th century
http://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/2014_0 ... chive.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=FfssA ... ad&f=false

17th century
http://kardazelet.blogspot.hu/2014/04/x ... saber.html

15th-17th century
https://www.scribd.com/doc/241260179/Ko ... -Szazadban

Kamil Szadkowski
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Kamil Szadkowski » Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:33 am

I know that this topic isn't about "in war" usage of the sabre but you've made some statements that I just can't leave without some clarification.

abre is by its nature a cavalry weapon, when you trace it back to its ‘roots’ a curved cutting weapon it almost always goes back to the preferred weapon for use on a horse, while a strait blade seems to be more suited to footmen.

But actually in Poland sabre appears at first as infantry weapon as well as civilian weapon of town folk. As an example in XV(second half) c. in infantry "regiment" of sir Marek from 466 soldiers (crossbowmen and pavissemen) 186 of them was armed with sabres, the rest used mostly arming swords and messers.

Nobility thus cavalry adopted it as last. Also at first as civilian weapon since even in the first half of XVI c. longsword will be main weapon of the knight and noble.
Example: Battle of Orsha 1514
Image

This leads me to assumption. Since early polish sabres were used alongside messers and other typical western weapons and Poland was still under some influence from Germany (and West as general) especially in terms of arms and armour wouldn't it be possible that Poles in early stages (XV and XVI century) of sabre were using it alot like messer?
Especially that fechtschule in Gdańsk was continuously active up to XVII century.

The offhand for cavalry is the horse, thus much training is geared strictly to using the blade in one had.

I can't agree on this either. Grappling was integral part of fighting from horseback. Grappling was even used in Battle of Komarów in 1920 (probably the last big cavalry battle in european history). You can find some information about it in "White Eagle Red Star" by Norman Davies.

Other sources:
W. Kwaśniewicz, Pięć wieków szabli polskiej 1993 (Five centuries of Polish Sabre)
M. Bogacki, Broń wojsk polskich w okresie średniowiecza 2009 (Weapons of Polish troops in the Middle Ages)

P.S. Sorry for creating offtopic, my nerdy side took over me

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Richard Marsden
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Richard Marsden » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:13 am

Wow. You're making a comment on a post way way way back from way long ago by a guy I'm not sure is around anymore.

That said, thanks for posting.

Since this thread, many things have happened. Check this out.
https://www.amazon.com/Polish-Saber-Ric ... 771654/ref

I demure on the exact origin of the saber, other than that there seems to be an East and West meeting, which is not all that unusual in Poland.

Kamil Szadkowski
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Re: Eastern European Saber

Postby Kamil Szadkowski » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:29 am

Richard Marsden wrote:Wow. You're making a comment on a post way way way back from way long ago by a guy I'm not sure is around anymore.
That said, thanks for posting.
I demure on the exact origin of the saber, other than that there seems to be an East and West meeting, which is not all that unusual in Poland.

Yeah I know. As I wrote, the nerdy side of me took over.

Since this thread, many things have happened. Check this out.
https://www.amazon.com/Polish-Saber-Ric ... 771654/ref

As for your book, it's on my list for quite some time, but when when you earn medium polish wage then buying it is... well... a serious expense. Sooner or later I'll buy it.


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