Polish Saber Curriculum

A forum for Polish and other Eastern European saber systems.
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Tyler Brandon
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Tyler Brandon » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:53 pm

@ John H

So summing up...

Basics are the same accross are systems. So more universals.

The specifics of Eastern Saber are going to be in their philisophical approach to combat and the unique techniques they employ based on the features of the blade and guard that while possible with another similar sword in another region (say a 1796 LC in Britain) was not employed.

Richard was on board with the Swedish sources for universals. But the real question would be then is there anything partciluarin Swedish saber manuals radically different from others from Western Europe?
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby KeithFarrell » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:26 pm

Tyler Brandon wrote:Richard was on board with the Swedish sources for universals. But the real question would be then is there anything partciluarin Swedish saber manuals radically different from others from Western Europe?


Yes. The half march, full march and bow march give the style an interesting and different flavour. Having taken a couple of lessons with Andreas, it seems that the 19th century Swedish sabre stuff is quite considerably different to what Starzewski talks about in his treatise on 17th century Polish sabre. Also, the weapons are quite different, so the style is built to deal with a different sort of weapon than the sabre used by the Pole a couple of hundred years earlier.
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Tyler Brandon » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:16 pm

KeithFarrell wrote:
Tyler Brandon wrote:Richard was on board with the Swedish sources for universals. But the real question would be then is there anything partciluarin Swedish saber manuals radically different from others from Western Europe?


Yes. The half march, full march and bow march give the style an interesting and different flavour. Having taken a couple of lessons with Andreas, it seems that the 19th century Swedish sabre stuff is quite considerably different to what Starzewski talks about in his treatise on 17th century Polish sabre. Also, the weapons are quite different, so the style is built to deal with a different sort of weapon than the sabre used by the Pole a couple of hundred years earlier.


Is there anything about Swedish saber it that stood out to from anything else in Europe and the U.S.? I'm generally more familiar with Anglo-American works and while I see a lot of similarity I'm still getting info stating it's pretty different from what you'd get in a saber treatise written in the Anglosphere.
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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:25 pm

Andreas can answer this one better. Let me try to summon him.

Edit - Andreas can you answer in this thread? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2347

@All
Lets keep this thread just for our findings based on the email. We'll use Eastern European Saber for our free-for all discussion.

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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:51 pm

Annnd...

Check post 1. Sources we're using so far.

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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:14 am

Reminder Homework

DUE - OCTOBER 19th

Video of sparring using a slim and wider stances. We have seen the slim stance, (rear foot cocked) more akin to an even-weighted rapier stance in Starzeweski's 19th century manual, and in a variety of non-Polish 17th century manuals using single-sword. The more wide stance with the toes forward shows up in 17th and 18th century Polish art, a variety of non-Polish 16th century manuals. Then we have the really wide stance with lots of off-line movement by swinging the leg. Russ Mitchell's Hungarian, which has historical roots to Eastern Europe and a German 19th century saber manual use this.

What's this mean? Two of the plausible stances have a connection to Poland. Alas, both stances are tenuous. One's linked to a Polish manual from the wrong century, the other is a painting. The really wide stance has no direct tie to Poland, but it does to Eastern Europe and Germany- both neighbors.

For a reminder here is what we filmed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odqq1CSGg8A Explanation

Trying all 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljyovwlORQQ

Things of note
With the slimmer stance, one can lean forward and back and linear movement is easy.
With both toes forward, it's hard to lean. Meyer-like movement is easy, meaning lateral.
With the really wide stance, we had little luck getting it to work.

Everyone has their favorite, but try them all.

No time to film? That's ok.
No camera? Liar. Y'all have cell-phones these days! :)
No trainer? Use single-sticks if you need to for this.

4 days! Good luck.

After this we'll discuss settling on a stance.

Small Update = I spoke with a a few other Polish sparring groups, who gave a thumbs up to our work. They didn't share much beyond that!

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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:47 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua-rWrB_-xw

My findings!

Next task will be the creation of a general 'how to' as well as some historical anecdotes to help make the system Polish in flavor.


And we are not alone. Polish friends doing the same and having the same roadbumps we do. This group, for example, is much more keen on using outside and even modern sources than we are, but fully aware of the drawbacks.
http://www.lorica.pl/historia-szermierk ... drukuj.php

Edit: Working out theory differences as well.

A - Use 1830 Starzewski and a few German resources from the 19th century as main source.
B - Use the above as just one of many resources (art, nearby cultures, anecdotes) not neccessarily the main resource.

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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:51 am

Update: Plans to get Starzewski's 19th century manual translated into English.

Major Task: Huessler's rapier manual includes a Pole vs a Turk using heavy curved blades. Unfortunately, I can find no text with this. On the surface, Huessler is a good sign. We have art, the right time period, and the book was written by a fencing master. But we need more because Huessler himself has no direct links to Poland and without text for the image we can't tell perciesely what's going on.

I've looked around and found copies of the book, but not with the image in question. Good luck all!

Heussler 1626 German Rapier manaul with one image. No text yet. Pole vs Turk
http://www.lorica.pl/szermierka-pics/ar ... zabla4.jpg

http://wiktenauer.com/images/6/6c/Heu%C3%9Fler_1-M.jpg (Straight saber. Again no text)


(And yes, I already asked Michael C. for help.)

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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Keith P. Myers » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:06 pm

You should be asking Kevin Mauer for help. I think he's translated Heussler already, or at least parts of it.
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby john h » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 pm

Richard Marsden wrote:Update: Plans to get Starzewski's 19th century manual translated into English.

As I’d guess that will fall to Daria, there are some copies floating around, they are apparently not very good, but I don’t know if that was the translation or Starzewski’s text itself. I’ve heard Bart from ARMA Poland has done a translation and I’ve heard the Aussies (stoccata School) have a copy as well. It may be worth getting one of these so she’s not ‘reinventing the wheel.’

http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... =31&t=9652


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