Polish Saber Curriculum

A forum for Polish and other Eastern European saber systems.
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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:19 pm

@John H

Daria, I believe, thinks she can do a better job at it. However, having something to work with would be nice. Want to go make friends and see what you can find? I want to divvy up the work-load.

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:40 pm

Some corrections and observations, meant to help, actually:

Be careful to spell it Heussler not Huessler. :geek:

That picture shows the "sabres" to look like fancy-hilted messers/falchions... :shock:

Our esteemed comrade Bart W. is almost certainly not a member of ARMA Poland any more, considering that Bart W. and his Polish fellows were the ones whom the owner/director of Team-ARMA-World-Police challenged to sparring duel and then failed to show up to face those Polish fencers. :|

I too would encourage you to reach Kevin Maurer for scholarly help. :)

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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:41 am

Code: Select all

Be careful to spell it Heussler not Huessler

Thanks!

I'm in contact with Kevin via FB for more information. I'll report back if anything comes of it.

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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:37 pm

Teaser...

Maurer has the plates and the text. He says its all in relation to cutting and in a rapier manual. Interesting. I'll share more when I get it.
Last edited by Richard Marsden on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:38 pm

Maurer delivers!

Image

page 211

Follow now how you should cut one to his face

If when you cut in to him, inside his blade, and he would quickly cut after you to the outside, thus step with your right foot well into him, and displace his strike nearly with the strong of your blade, as soon as his strike touches on your blade, then with your left hand under your right arm, grab away his right arm, quickly cut just then the Quarta from your left side, and from the outside to his right jaw (cheek) how in this image it is seen.


Note from Maurer: This image depicts a face cut, even though he specifically mentions a cut from the quarta to the opponents right cheek. other surrounding text refer back to this image also. and the arm grabbing is not depicted in this image either, but the rear triangle step is very apparent in this image with the fencer on the right.

Note from Marsden: This grabbing under your own sword as you step in deep shows up in Spanish rapier. Movement of Conclusion if I recall. If someone cuts to your inside, raise your blade as you parry, then continue to lift it and dip the tip of the sword to your left. Pass and grab the wrist and now that you have secured your foe, wheel the hand about and whack. In Huessler's variation, it's a bit different. Deflect a cut from the outside, and you'll still need to lift your sword to cover and be able to reach your left hand under the blade. He doesn't say to pass, but does say to step deeply with the right foot. One the hand is secured, whack away! Interesting that the plate doesn't fit the text.

Image

page 215

Follow now how you shall cut to his right arm

52. If one cuts in at you, inside (of your blade) and he will also cut inside to your head, thus pay careful attention to those of his incoming cuts, that you step back with your left foot, and best him in the Measure, and also sink well backwards with your upper body, and cut simultaneous with him inside to his right arm, how you see in this following image:

Note from Maurer: Heussler uses the word "senck" which could also mean slant backwards, or sink.)

Note from Marsden: Appears to be a counter-cut, in which you slip back with the left foot and your body while striking the opponent's right arm.

Image

page 216

From another Art

45. If one cuts in at you but outside your blade, to your head also, thus pay careful attention that you step well back with your left foot, from his cuts, and cut simultaneously with him outside to his right arm, how you see in the following image:


Note from Maurer: (That appears to be Heussler on the right) Here is an additional bit of text that follows on the next page and is also relevant to the image page 216.

Note from Marsden: Similar advise to what to do from an inside cut.

53. When you cut in to him, to the inside of the half strong (halbe stercke) of his blade, and as soon as he will cut after to your outside, then also step back with your left foot, and cut him outside to his right arm, how you have seen on the previous image.

Note From Marsden = Ok, so we have 1600's plates in a German rapier manual discussing cuts, showing one of the combatants in Polish dress and another in Turkish dress. Take that for what you will. My first instinct is Heussler is giving advice on cutting that is applicable to numerous one-handed cutting weapons. He also seems to be applying single-tempo responses to an opponent, which is common in rapier. IE- Answer a cut with a defense and offense all in one, in the case of the cut to the inside and outside of the opponent's arm.

I'd love to know why a Polish person or Turk was depicted, and if the stances and even techniques are applicable to them. Or, were both seen as 'cutters' by everyone at the time and are thus just a visual aide? No idea- but, it's something new to ponder.

Way to go Kevin Maurer.

Edit = Reading some of Maurer's posts on Huessler, the fellow may very well have 'borrowed' most of his material from another, earlier source! Hmm!

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Andreas Engström
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Andreas Engström » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:22 am

This is very interesting, indeed! Thanks! Eagerly awaiting more if there is any :-)

BTW, before the speculations begin on what the mysterious "other Art" in the third plate might be, I should just point out that

"Auff ein ander Art" just means "In another way/manner". Referring to the previous technique, obviously.

-Andreas

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Tyler Brandon
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Tyler Brandon » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:51 am

Giddy as a schoolgirl! :D
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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:39 pm

Maurer is letting me peer at the manuscript, which so far seems to be for rappier/rapier and was plagiarized from an earlier source- which was pretty standard for the day.

The depiction of saber and other cutting swords, so far, reminds me very much of the description of saber in Marcelli's 1683. It's in the context of rapier, and so frustratingly lacking.

That said, we'll film these three techniques this weekend. We have a manual, right time-period, showing the right weapon and even the right costume in one case- wrong country though! Got to love it!

I'll need to alter my beloved stance up, but that's ok. I have no shame.

If anyone else want to try to film this, speak now or I'll beat you to it.

Oh, Maurer will relate back anything else of note for sure! He's a great guy!

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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:04 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQTQfzU9atc

Take 1 !

And some updates.

Passing (Our Phoenix Society take)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EmVUleYqp4

Numerous stance types. I keep getting emails and pms and requests to be more open-minded on stance, and so I am.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBLq86bo1DE

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Richard Marsden
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Re: Polish Saber Curriculum

Postby Richard Marsden » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:32 am

Stuff is happening, just to keep everyone updated. I'm contacting people in person rather than group emails to get things done. I expect a basic how-to PDF with options since we have sources showing different things!

PM or Email me if you have any input to offer or have any questions.


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